Thank you, Antoinette, for talking with us today. Could you give us a little introduction into what you do?  

I'm a co-founder of an organisation called The Gallifrey Foundation, which primarily works to protect the ocean. However, everything is interconnected, so my path has led me upstream to: the negative impacts of fossil fuel extraction, human health, social justice, gender equality, food packaging, overfishing, sharktivism, and deep seabed mining. So, I'm all over the place.

I'm also the co-founder of SHE Changes Climate, a campaign organisation to get more women into top level negotiation positions at  the Conferences of the Parties (COPs). (The COP is the annual climate conference where each nation has representation).  However, we also work to bring women on business boards. We need more women, diversity and inclusivity thinking to get richer perspectives and more solid rounded solutions.

Which of these are you more involved with at the moment?

Unfortunately, I can't choose. I try to be an easy-going person and adaptable to what is needed. It's like being a chef, prepping and cooking dishes simultaneously. Unfortunately, it's tough for me as I have ADD (Attention Deficit Disorder), which can be an advantage, but it means I have to skim over many things.

We've just come from the UN ocean conference. It was exciting because I made excellent contacts and collaborations with other organisations. We all need to work together and move forward in the same direction, even if our positions might be slightly different.

With SHE Changes Climate, things have hotted up because Egypt is hosting COP27. Whilst they have good gender balance within their government (more than the UK had for COP26), we need a 50:50 vision for the future. (Up until now women have been president of only 5 COPs out of 27. So why not fix it by having a female/male co-presidency? We need to know that women's perspectives (and all other diversity perspectives) are included in these decisions.

There are a great number of women involved in this arena, but at the top, it's mainly men. So how can we ensure that transparency and accountability of women's perspectives and women's points of view are being included? Anything that a woman has suggested that is not through a male lens is not likely to be implemented. So, we need more women along with men with a “divine feminine” approach.

You seem very passionate about women's rights, equality and the importance of being heard. Can you tell us a little about your roots or the path before your entrepreneurial drive came?

I grew up in West Africa by the Atlantic Ocean. I spent a lot of my time fascinated by watching nature, yet, I didn't engage with it. I learned early on that you can encounter amazing interactions just by observing. I loved watching social bonds between creatures, something humans seem to forget when we raise cattle, livestock, or fish. We forget that it's integral to their relationships. I've lived all over the world, and as a result, I appreciate how we can look at life through our own lens. But that's not necessarily the only lens.

At 18 I left the UK and discovered that London was not the centre of the universe! That taught me never to be nation-centric. It's always nice to recognise and appreciate certain things about a culture but be aware that it exists alongside other cultures, and we must be respectful of them all.

It's interesting how open-minded you are and how you can see different cultures, views and opinions all have a place, as we can see things differently. Unfortunately, many people are not as open-minded, so this is a great point. Can you tell us how you began this journey and what your driving forces were?

As a young person, you need to go out and earn a living to make money to survive — not necessarily to be super wealthy. So, I started a career and trained myself. I've done many different things in my life, like building a business, but I'm very compartmental, which means my career before was within its own bubble. One can say, "Oh, I did this, and I rose up the ladder..." but at the end of the day, that's the past. What matters is today, the here and now, and that's my philosophy. We need to work with what we have right now for a positive future.

I read a book well over ten years ago by Charles Clover, called The End of The Line. It was about the state of the ocean and overfishing. He described that 100 years ago, we used to go fishing, and the fishes had a place to hide, as we didn't have the technology, radar or sonar. They had places to go where they could reproduce to get the best genetic stocks. Therefore, those caught were usually the weakest, and the strongest would survive. In the last 40 years, there has been a move to come away from fishing. Yet the subsidies meant to take people off the ocean ended up giving them better technology, faster, more efficient boats, bigger nets, and equipment. So, if you're a fish in the ocean, now you don't have time to reproduce; you don't have time to hide. Because wherever you are, you're going to get found. If you must migrate somewhere, you're caught by someone else.

I realised these creatures have no one speaking up for them, so my mission is to speak for the young, those who cannot speak, and who cannot defend themselves, and it began via fish. But, in the end, I must talk to humans, and I have to appeal to the things that appeal to most humans and policymakers, usually economics and health.

Our work is closely involved with Dr Sylvia Earle, the first female NOAA Chief scientist and  now a National Geographic Explorer in residence. She heads her own organisation Mission Blue.  She's spent 7,000 hours underneath the water and is an incredible scientist and communicator at 87 years young! She constantly reminds us we take out so much, but what do we put back in? A farmer will reap his crop but also sow new seeds. We don't do that with the ocean. We take and take, and the only thing we're dumping back in right now is chemical or plastic pollution. So, I feel a greater sense of urgency and justice for creatures and for those peoples who used to maintain and nurture the ocean as it should have been.

Your passion comes through in abundance for the cause and having Dr Earle inspiring you must only drive that spirit on. She sounds like a wonderful woman with a wealth of experience in this field. So who exactly are you doing this for? Why should they listen to you or care as much as you do?

So, let's go back to a big issue. The world is an ecosystem, and we are all connected. We should be connected by love, and I feel in the world of today, in business, technology and commerce, compassion, empathy, and kindness are missing. We will need much more to survive the next 10-20 years. We will all be losers in the climate emergency if we don't get together and pull our act together right now. So, who am I doing this for? I'm doing this for my children, their grandchildren, and all the creatures that live on this planet. This beautifully calibrated ecosystem, I am learning, is like the puzzle Jenga; if you take a piece out, everything falls down. That's what we're doing. We're pulling parts away without caring, and I feel we need to appreciate and care for what we have on this planet.

When talking to people, I have to speak to them in different languages to make them stop and think about why we're here and the things that inspire us. So, if I talk to a mother, it's going to be about her children and their health. When speaking to a male, I can talk about diminished sperm count and penis size because chemical plasticizers have been shown to have an insidious effect . So, I'll do whatever it takes to get a message across and generate the action.

The sad thing is we tend to default away from our responsibility and ability to make a change. So, if you're in a big organisation, you say, it's the organisation. But we're all part of it; we're part of society; we're part of a community, and we use our voice. I had a friend who posted on Facebook yesterday - it made me cry. She said I'm turning my garden into a clover lawn because of a post by Antoinette. It was beautiful; not only did they hear it, but they were doing something about it. I don't know who will listen, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that the message goes out into space, and something somewhere creates a reaction.

What is most fulfilling about your job or role that you're living in your career?

I'm passionate about it, love it, and live it 24 hours a day. I think the most fulfilling thing is the wins. Anyone who reads about the environment today is going to get depressed. It's not good news, and it's pretty dismal if you read the science. But I am part of a community of at least 2,000 people that I know, directly or indirectly, and we're all working for the same thing. We're all striving to protect the planet. I may have a different view on some of them, yet we're all well-meaning and trying to do it. So, I was incredibly happy when I realised that some big things had happened, and I could tell others about it.

For example, in 2015, we worked closely with the International Union for Conservation of Nature. We did baseline reports on microplastics in the ocean, where we found that virtually all sea turtles had plastics in their stomach. We found plastic at the bottom of deep-sea trenches in the Atlantic and on the beaches. This has generated more research into plastics and into plastic free islands.

I am also part of a group of other organisations; we use strategies from different angles. Whether a litter picker in Asia, a toxicologist in California or a food scientist in Switzerland. And what we're trying to push forward is to get the legislation to create the rules so industries can have a level playing field. That is a bit of a battle because, in a normal world, you could say, "Oh, this is wrong; could you please change it?" But the reality is many businesses have a lot of money invested and want to work in the opposite direction.

I'm part activist, campaigner, and policymaker, depending on which hat I am wearing. Today, I can say we have the single-use plastic directive in Europe. It was one of the fastest directives passed within the EU, taking approximately two years and was transposed into national legislation last year. I was in France last weekend and can already see the impact. I know their countries will push again on how to interpret it, but we are holding them to account. Now they have to live by these principles, and we're ensuring it's not interpreted differently. So, we have accountability, monitoring, and legislation, which means companies who want to work in this arena clearly know what they can and cannot do, which is important.

What happens to our plastic waste? We all think it's recycled, but for those who don't know, it gets exported. Switzerland's plastic waste gets exported to Germany, which then goes to Turkey, or it could go to Indonesia, which is unfair. It's taking my dirt, dumping it in my little sister's room, and saying it's her fault. I'm angry because the countries that produce and use the most plastic send it off with the justification of creating jobs in these countries; it's so wrong.

You must step back and say what is right and wrong. Ethically, it just doesn't work. The Basel Convention, passed last year, prohibits shipping plastic waste to other countries. That is huge but now, there's an illegal trade going on. So, I am happy to have watched those grow from germination to success. If we can do that and keep going that way, we're going in the right direction. It's never going to be an easy battle. But, as we've learned recently with Roe vs Wade, for example, anything that you think you've gained, you have to defend constantly. You can never give up. This is not a job where I will see it to the end, I will cede my position, and there'll be a younger person take over and continue the fight. That's how it must be; it is a constant battle for survival.

It must be hard to imagine a time when you will hand the reins over to someone else to carry on the fight. Knowing that someone will continue the hard work must be reassuring when the time comes. When did you do something completely different than planned along this journey that made you take a different path or direction?

There are many, and I suppose it's part of being older and wiser. As I told my children, I can't teach you experience; you must experience yourself. Someone else told me it's like cooking a casserole; you can't make a casserole cook faster than it's going to cook.

Were there things I did differently? I've learned not to be timid and wary of speaking up. Now I will keep saying what I have to say because it has to be said, and whether I say it badly or eloquently, I don't care; the message has to get out there. The difference is that the message is more important than me, which was a big difference.

I have also learnt to reach out, collaborate with other groups, be humble, and accept that we, or I, certainly don't know everything. What I have loved about the community I'm in is the generosity of scientists, marine biologists, of people who will give me their time. I'm not a marine biologist. I'm not an expert. But in a way, that's not bad because I will ask the questions, and I need it explained to me as a member of the general public, so we can all understand the issues.

What life experience did you have before you went into entrepreneurship? What gave you the perspective or the confidence that you could start this business and make a difference?

No idea. I don't believe anyone who says they do. I think we have to understand that life is full of failure. I could have failed, and I probably have failed in many things. In our society, we only celebrate success. Celebrating failure is the best lesson because you learn when things go wrong. I was always worried about getting things right because I'd look like an idiot or be humiliated, but that doesn't matter; just get your message out there and learn from the experience.

I know what the long horizon is; the long horizon is let's protect the oceans so that we can make them last longer in playing their role in climate change. Let's look after the creatures within it, which are disappearing at an alarming rate. The ocean is resilient; we know that. I couldn't tell you to the last decimal because 25 different scientists would argue over the percentage of this and that, but the bottom line is common sense says we know about it and must protect it. We know we're overfishing and treating the oceans like shit, and now we need to do something about it.

Then let's take that upstream. Let's talk about it on land; at least you can see what's happening on land, but it's just as important. It all goes back to my original argument that we need to respect and cherish what we've been given, like a precious gift; why mistreat it? Why not just look around and understand that interconnectivity? I think that's something I'm very aware of, and my feet are on the ground. When reaching into the feeling of the Earth's magnetism and the feeling you get when looking at the stars, we need to get that connection back. Because that will keep us humble and more respectful of what we're using and abusing.

There must have been challenges or mistakes made along the way; how would you suggest getting around hurdles and overcoming challenges?

Find the most efficient way to get what you want to be done. So, if you hit a wall, maybe you can walk around it or find a ladder and go over it. I use this quote a lot, "The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result", so do something different. It doesn't mean to say that your goal doesn't change but change how you get to it. So, I think, in that sense, I am learning more strategies.

I have two keywords for survival, we need to be tangentially creative. We need to think out of the box and look at creative solutions. We need to have resilience; something may not work the first time, so we may need to use a different strategy.

Tangentially creative, similar to 'If at first, you don't succeed, try, try again.' To have the mindset to think outside the box, not give up and search for another strategy is fantastic advice. Along the way, have you had many 'Aha' moments which you would like to share?

Many, and I'll give you a really interesting example. This is a bit personal; I have been married twice. My parents loved each other but always fought and shouted at each other. I remember it used to upset me a lot. When I got married, we argued and didn't communicate effectively about things, and that marriage didn't work out. When I met my now husband, I decided I would sit down with my husband and discuss any issues rather than brush over them or say nothing was wrong. I've learned over time that if you can explain, what is annoying or frustrating you, suddenly, it's no longer about you being the bad person. It's this behaviour is annoying or upsetting me, or vice versa, and maybe it's down to me. It literally changed my life.

I'd been married for over 30 years, and it was changing the way I thought; rather than being reactive, I would be proactive. Sometimes as a human, we tend to react on an emotional level. Sometimes you look at the situation; and think, how can I change that? Those automatic knee-jerk reactions will have a knock-on effect on many other things. We need to step back and say, "I'm going to change this situation.". It's certainly helped me. I can be very reactive when I need to be. I can be emotional, strong and harsh because we're campaigning, for example, but then there are other times when I have to sit back and think; how will this play out? It's given me much more wisdom than not, and I don't always get it right, but that's what I'm aiming for.

Thank you for sharing your personal experiences with us. It shows how our experiences can shape our future choices and give us the confidence to make changes. Earlier, you mentioned two books that inspired you. Are there any more books, movies, speeches or people that have influenced your journey?

It's funny. My book list is about as tall as I am because so many people have done many wonderful things. The book that changed my life for the marine world is The End of The Line by Charles Clover. He's just come out with a new book, which is more optimistic called Rewilding The Sea. His first book was about the terrible state of the ocean, and his new book suggests that if you leave the ocean alone for even ten years, it bounces back. That's what gives me hope. Because if we can do that, we will allow the ocean to regenerate, which would be amazing!

Silent Spring, by Rachel Carson, is another great book, which is now over 50 years old. I reread it from time to time to remind me how, when chemicals started entering, not just nature, that nature always had a way of dealing with our mess. You could percolate through sand and gravel, and the water would be pure, but now that's gone. Unfortunately, we now have persistent chemicals that do not go away in our bodies that we created.

I watch a movie every year called Dark Waters by Mark Ruffalo. It portrays a lawyer Robert Bilott, who is, in my mind, a modern-day hero because he single-handedly took on the chemical industrial giant DuPont. He challenged them for their actions, that they deliberately knew that the we, and our environment, was being permanently damaged by their product. They knew it, and I think it is beyond criminal. But it's terrible that this has happened and been allowed to happen. That inspires me because it shows that one person's determination and conviction, along with their team, have made changes to the point where these chemicals, PFAs, are becoming banned as a class of chemicals in the US. That is incredible.

There are people who sit there and do nothing and others who say, "I can't do it." It doesn't matter whether you're a big name. There's no harm in trying and pushing this as far as you can take it; who knows, someone else may take the relay from you. So, it's worth that effort for the good of humankind and planetary health, and that's where we should all be heading for.

That's a powerful message; no matter who you are, you can make a difference if you try. What were the biggest compromises you made to get to where you are today?

Three things: money, friends and family. We work for nothing and do it because we're passionate about it. I'm very lucky that my husband's business will help us fund this. But that's the deal: we're not trying to do more than we can; we are constrained by what we can do. That's the first thing, but I'm fine as long as we've got money for our children's education, health, and home. I don't need any more.

My friends, it isn't easy because I've got a bunch of wonderful friends who understand me. But if you want a supportive friend who wants to be there, then no, I'm really bad. Thankfully, they know that my passion is directed in this way. I don't mean to say I don't love them, but I'm asking a lot for them to stand by me, and my family, my children. Much of my time is spent doing my work, yet I try to be with them when possible. But I'm always aware that I would love more time with them and to do things with them. But sometimes I have to say I'm sorry, I can't. Even though they're older now, I do regret that.

I love my family; I adore them, so it has been tough because I tried to balance everything. But there are times when you have so much to do that you have to get on and do it. I know my children are okay, I know that they are balanced, and I'm not worried about certain things. If there is a crisis, of course, I drop everything. But I must make that choice, and I don't like it. But that's the reality. So yeah, those are the sacrifices in that sense.

It sounds like you have a very supportive network of people around you who clearly care and understand the importance of what you do and what you stand for. How do you envision the future or the new normal?

It's not good: but it's not bad. We still have time, but we have to get moving now. That's what drives me so much is this incredible sense of urgency. I want to help young people; I want to help raise them; I don't want to be the one leading but trying to help them, do what they feel they can do, and maybe guide them and give them the support they need.

One of the big frustrations with young people like Greta Thunberg is that she's been talking to governments, and they all agree, but nothing happens. So, what's the point of giving this hope that by speaking up, change will happen if change doesn't happen? That's the gap that we all must work on now, and it's not a matter of just electing leaders. As someone said, you must wait until the oldies die off before the new ones come in, so we have to find a different way. That's tangential creative thinking, and how are we going to get around this problem because they are barriers right now. Antonio Guterres says it, and despite everything he's saying, they're still drilling for oil and gas in the North Sea. There are still contracts going on in the Caribbean. It's basically neo-colonialism. We need to call that out and do whatever we can.

I want to mention Stop Ecocide, a movement to have Ecocide placed as one of the five laws in the International Criminal Court. Within Ecocide law, we could put so much more pressure on companies and governments to make a change.

When you are no longer on this Earth, how would you want your close friends and family to look back on you and your journey?

I honestly don't care. It doesn't matter to me; I am but a speck. I'll tell you an interesting story. Our organisation is called Gallifrey, and here is the breaking news, Gallifrey is the home planet of a fictional TV Timelord (The Doctor) called Doctor Who. We named it Gallifrey because every time the actor who plays The Doctor leaves the show, The Doctor regenerates into someone else and continues their work. So, the task is the same. I'm not the person, it's about what I've done and any impact I've had that should speak. It should not be attributed to me or anything to my name. I don't want that.

As a young entrepreneur just starting out, what advice could you give in these early stages to make a success of their business?

As a young entrepreneur, be aware that it's very easy to get very ambitious quickly. Success is very heavy, and it's wonderful. But it's an ego boost. I always talk about externalities, and I know that's the last thing an entrepreneur wants to hear starting out. All they want to do is get out there and go from loss to profit and expand global domination.

I suggest defining at the beginning how much is enough. Think about your impact on what you're creating. Whenever we make something, we take from somewhere else, we must be aware of that now, particularly in a finite world with finite resources. So that's not to say don't do anything but be mindful of them. Be prepared to mitigate any of the damage so that you are aware. You need to look out for the damage that could be created by scaling up over time because you're draining more and more resources. Think about what you're doing and how you will mitigate it, and if it's that bad, you have to stop. You have a moral and ethical responsibility to stop and find a different tactic. How are you going to go around it? How are you going to go over it?

For example, small enterprises start a restaurant and switch to biodegradable or using compostable products. It is quite an investment as it's more expensive to do biodegradable or compostable, but most of the time, those products are either not recycled, mess up the recycling system, or are not biodegradable or not compostable. So, you end up having a lot of grief from your customers who are a bit more aware, claiming this is greenwashing. But, on the other hand, this could prompt thinking about other things they can offer and thinking of bigger solutions. For example, giving a discount if you bring your glasses, bottles or containers. You can even ask your customers, what can we do to make it easier for you? We want to work to help the environment because every single plastic bottle we drink from has a 91% chance it's going straight into landfill incineration or the environment.

If you set boundaries in advance, you're prepared. If you have to backtrack, people hate that.

Finally, inclusivity because it's not just about including more women. It's about including everyone because we all have different viewpoints, leading to a more successful, financially profitable company.

Finally, if there was one lasting message that you could share with the whole world, what would that be?

Show respect to Mother Earth because respect is the foundation of love. You can't have love if there is no respect. Respect means showing consideration, compassion and empathy.

That message goes back to my SHE Changes Climate and the divine feminine. I'm looking for men with the divine feminine. I'm looking for women with the courage to be compassionate in their business dealings to show kindness. Even Jacinda Ardern said compassion shouldn't be considered a weakness. So why can't we bring these values back into what we do? It isn't a dog-eat-dog world. It's a world where we can work together and find solutions. We don't need another Mark Zuckerberg or another Elon Musk; we need people who show kindness. People talk about the American dream, but it's about much more than money and how many Twitter followers you have.

A beautiful message, thank you. Before we end our conversation, I know you are active with quite a few different projects — how can people support you?

I'm part of the Fly Without Fins group. You can tweet airlines to either thank them or shame them for not declaring that they will carry shark fins as cargo. https://flywithoutfins.org/

We have WTF (Where's The Fish), through which we are suing Argentina with an injunction because they are not abiding by their constitutional right to sustainable living. So, we're accusing them of failing to do enough. But what has been great about it is it's got an actual reaction, and we've had reactions all the way up. So, it led to a very, very successful result this year, which we're very happy about. https://wheres-the-fish.org/

SHE Changes climate is our campaign to get more women at the COPs and on boards. https://www.shechangesclimate.org/

And last but not least, Fair Carbon is a more democratic way of carbon offsetting or carbon projects making sure that the bulk of the money will go downstream to the projects that need them rather than already in process. https://faircarbon.org/

Thank you, Antoinette, for talking with us today. The work you are doing affects us all, and it's brilliant to know there are people like yourself out there, fighting for the cause. We wish you all the best on this journey, and once again, thank you for sharing your experience today.

If you would like to find out more about Antoinette and The Gallifrey Foundation, you can find them at: https://gallifrey.foundation/

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