Thank you so much for being here, Kalle. Do you think you could introduce yourself and your business?
My name is Kalle Nilvér, and I'm one of the co-founders of GoClimate. GoClimate assists individuals and businesses in directing their limited time and resources toward the most effective actions to combat climate change, enabling them to focus on the right things.
Our business started five years ago, sparked out of the frustration around the climate crisis. This was before champions like Greta Thunberg and the Fridays for Future movement, when it felt like nobody was discussing the severity of the climate crisis.
We were deeply frustrated that such a significant threat to humanity was being ignored, and hardly anyone discussed it. And even when people did talk about it, they focused on the wrong things, such as recycling and minor details, instead of addressing the larger issues and the need for systemic change.
This frustration, coupled with a realisation of the severity of the situation and a sense of inaction, led to a continuous feeling of being down, although I was not clinically depressed. Out of this energy and the absence of meaningful public discussion, GoClimate was born.
Where did your career begin, and how has it unfolded over time?
I've been interested in environmental issues since I was a kid, but this was mainly expressed by watching TV series about certain environmental issues. My career didn’t start within climate though: I started a few IT companies before going full time with GoClimate.
One company was in the vehicle and transportation sector, which we sold to a hedge fund. The other company was in the real estate industry, specifically a real estate search engine for the Swedish market, which we sold to a Swedish bank. So I have done the whole startup, career-entrepreneur thing. I think I became fairly good at building companies and seeing new opportunities.
I however became very frustrated with just building things for money. It felt empty after a while. On top of that, I slowly realised the magnitude of the climate crisis, which added to my frustration. My girlfriend and I were expecting our second child when we started GoClimate, and that made me think a lot about the next generation and the world they would grow up in, which didn't look very good.
So you could say that my entrepreneurial background, interest in the environment, and the impending arrival of our second child sparked the idea for GoClimate.
Before you started GoClimate, what was the process from your last business to then? What was your thought process to say, "I need to stop this business", or set up something in the environmental space?
As for the other companies I started, it was mostly because it was possible. It was fun to build something and to create something with my friends. The turning point came when I was the CEO of my last company, a real estate search engine. We flew the entire company down to the Alps, to Chamonix in France. This was six years ago. We had 30 people taking the plane down just to enjoy ourselves, which now sounds ridiculously environmentally unfriendly. But that's what we did. We didn't know any better. We partied and had a lot of fun in Chamonix. I'm a big skier, and I love skiing.
Anyway, on this beautiful day in Chamonix, we hired a guide who took us on a gorgeous glacier ski trip called Val-de-Blanche. It's the most famous glacier ski run you can do. We were about halfway down when the guide stopped us. He said we had two options: walk up a nearby hill to take the train back to the village, or continue skiing down. There was less snow further down, so we might have to take off our skis and walk.
I asked him why they built a train station up that mountain instead of here. It would have made much more sense if it were lower. He explained that the glaciers used to be up there, but they were melting. So every year, they would add one step to the staircase going up that hill because the glacier won't be there much longer.
It was a beautiful spring day, and you could hear the glacier melting all around you. The sun was really strong, which added to the vividness of the experience. And again, as my girlfriend and I were expecting our second child, it hit me that my children may never get the opportunity to experience skiing down this beautiful, long glacier.
I was shocked by that realisation. Now this wasn't just something I knew intellectually from reading about climate change: it was dropped into my heart. This was real and happening now, not in 2050 or 2075.
This was the spark that made me change. Upon returning from the trip, I immediately informed my board, and the chairman of the board, that I was quitting. I felt an overwhelming need to do something to fight climate change.
How did forming your new company in the climate space come about when you quit? And how did you decide which direction to pursue?
We came together and looked at what we had at hand, trying to understand what we— with our joint knowledge and experience— could build to help ourselves. One of the realisations was that the emissions from just one return flight from Sweden to Thailand is equivalent to the climate emissions avoided from 20 years of perfect recycling. In Sweden, a lot of people invest significant energy into recycling, but perhaps they could do more good if instead of taking that flight on their holiday they opted for the train, or at least chose a closer destination than Thailand. By that single action we can contribute greatly to the environment and climate.
This realisation led us to understand that with a little more knowledge, we could make significant improvements without sacrificing much. For example, we could focus our energy on the right things and make the right choices, such as companies switching to green electricity in just two minutes or having meetings via platforms like Zoom instead of flying to another country for a meeting. These are relatively easy changes to make.
So, we realised that we don't have to lead less comfortable lives; we can lead fulfilling lives within the boundaries of our planet. It only requires a few adjustments. For example, we can promote inspirational lifestyles and encourage people to live this way. We even use the term "luxurious," hoping that more people will be motivated to make the shift instead of feeling restricted.
At the time, we noticed that many people were being told what not to do, like "don't fly" or "don't eat meat." While those suggestions are valid, they lacked inspiration. So, we aimed to change the narrative for individuals and businesses, making it more positive and straightforward. We also realised that many discussions around climate-related topics were complex and confusing for those not directly involved. For example, the debate around electric cars versus fossil fuel cars, prevalent five years ago, was often complicated by arguments about battery production and other factors.
We wanted to simplify these discussions. Now, we state that in 99% of cases, electric cars are better than fossil fuel cars. While there may be some exceptions, having a straightforward message helps those who aren't deeply knowledgeable about the subject. Our goal was to provide simple communication and help ourselves in the process. That's what we envisioned GoClimate should do.
Tell us about your co-founders.
There were three co-founders. One of them was my now-wife, Cecilia (my girlfriend at the time). We had endless discussions on the topic of climate as we shared the acute sense of needing to do something about the situation. She had studied environmental science, so she is much more knowledgeable than me and brought in the scientific aspect. On the other hand, I brought in my frustration and my knowledge of building companies.
Then we met this guy, Henrik Kniberg, who is a big name in Agile Coaching. He is the keynote speaker at many major Agile Conferences worldwide. So, Cecilia and I started GoClimate and published the first version of the homepage. Then Henrik called us and said, "This is brilliant. I want to be in."
Then it all kicked off and GoClimate was up and running!
You had five years to build this company. How has it been with the difficulties of COVID and war breaking out on top of the climate crisis?
It's been a lot of fun. However, COVID and the economic depression have unfortunately affected us, especially our company's customers. Many companies or businesses have shifted their focus solely to their core business and stopped engaging in activities outside of it.
We have had a few customers who ceased their climate and environmental work altogether. Partly due to the economic downturn but also because companies sometimes get more criticised for doing good but not perfect things— rather than not doing anything at all. Which is of course crazy.
While Covid and the war have affected our company, it's also a significant difference from five years ago. Back then, we would receive questions like, “Is climate change real?” or “Are humans causing climate change?” People were curious about ice cores and scientific research. But now, we no longer get those questions. Instead, people are reaching out to us and expressing a strong desire to take action. As a result, we see a tremendous shift, especially in the companies that contact us. They are much more conscious and willing to invest money in addressing climate change.
It's been a very positive journey. I meet and work with companies passionate about making a difference every day. It's truly inspiring and a lot of fun.
Are you targeting B2B or the public at large?
Individuals can go to our site and calculate their footprint to understand what its size is. Then they can also financially support climate projects in correspondence to their footprint. We encourage and inspire them to engage in systemic change, like contacting politicians and businesses— but also, of course, we help educate on ways to lower their own emissions. So, for example, we can guide individuals on how they could take the train to Norway instead of flying to Thailand, at least if they’re based in Sweden. Norway is beautiful. Or if they have a few more days for their holiday, why not take the train to Portugal?
The part of our company growing fastest is the part which helps businesses. We help companies calculate their climate footprint automatically and take responsibility for their emissions. We have integrated three accounting systems in Sweden, and we can say that we’ve now fully automated this process. The tool we use for this calculates a company's climate emissions based on its accounting. The calculations are based on data collected through invoices and receipts, and they are categorised according to their climate impact, based on the GHG protocol.
That’s very impressive. What would you say is the most fulfilling thing in your work?
I'm a people person, so I love working with people and our team. I particularly love our team— they’re dedicated and passionate about trying to stop climate change. As for our audience, it is incredibly rewarding to meet customers and companies genuinely wanting to make a difference. Most of the time, our meetings are with the company's most passionate environmentalists— people who truly want to drive change. And that's also super inspiring and motivating.
What were the significant challenges you faced as a skilled business founder with ample experience while growing GoClimate, considering that every new business encounters various obstacles along the way?
We need to pay salaries to the people working at GoClimate. Initially, we had many discussions with companies interested in taking action, but there was less willingness to pay for the service than could have been hoped. The companies seemed content, saying, "We want to do something. Can you assist us?" And we responded, "Yes, we'd love to help you, but we also need to pay our employees." We have observed a greater willingness to pay for our services now, though, so this has improved.
Yet this posed one of the biggest challenges, because our goal was to combat climate change, and we wanted to help the maximum number of companies possible. We often dedicated significant time pro bono to help businesses. This wasn't the wisest approach initially, as they then expected ongoing assistance for free or at a minimal cost.
So you could say that identifying businesses willing to pay for our services has been challenging. We had to challenge ourselves and determine who would invest in this cause. While we engage in climate issues voluntarily, participating in climate marches and such, we need to communicate to companies that we can't provide our services for free.
Have you ever made bigger mistakes or experienced failures with GoClimate from which you have learned, or perhaps even in earlier businesses?
I have made thousands of mistakes, and I make mistakes every day. One of my strengths, and one reason why I have successfully founded three companies now, is that I am okay with making mistakes. I don’t really have a lot of pride and would rather do something at all, than not do anything. Facebook says, "Better done than perfect." That makes a lot of sense, and I have noticed that many other people struggle with not doing things perfectly, but I don't. So I do things, and sometimes they turn out to be not good, and sometimes they are clear mistakes, but at least we are making progress and hopefully learning.
I can't provide an example of a big mistake. There are many things we could have done better. We could have communicated better with our members about where exactly the money goes when they support climate projects. We could have communicated more frequently, such as informing them that last month's money went to a specific project and made a difference in a particular way. We are trying to improve that now as we feel we might have lost the personal contact with some members, as we have grown. That might be one mistake.
Have you, apart from your current company, taken a completely different direction than what you had envisioned or planned for yourself at any point in your life?
GoClimate was initially founded for individuals. So the first thing we did was build a service allowing individuals to sign up to support climate projects and reduce climate emissions. But I was surprised to discover the strong demand we received from businesses wanting to get involved. We now have almost 10,000 members, most of whom are employed or running small businesses.
The connection between individuals and businesses was much stronger than I had anticipated. What surprised me even more, was that most of our customers come to us without any salesperson from GoClimate actively reaching out to them. It was like a big "Whoa, what's going on?" moment.
Now, in retrospect, it makes sense. While living a more climate-friendly life as an individual feels good, there aren't many other tangible benefits. But for businesses, being climate-friendly has several advantages. It becomes easier to attract and retain employees, gain new customers, improve the brand, and participate in more procurement opportunities. Additionally, larger companies are also bound by regulations that require them to take action. So the benefits of engaging in climate change are much clearer for businesses than individuals. While only around 1% of individuals are highly passionate about climate change, and perhaps around 10% genuinely care, I'm unsure if the number exceeds 50%. However, businesses clearly need to do something for the climate and can reap significant benefits from it.
This realisation marked a significant shift for us. We initially focused on individuals but eventually shifted our attention towards businesses.
How has balancing luxury and caring for the planet affected your personal life and family dynamics?
So, before we started GoClimate, I had already adopted a vegan diet, and now I have stopped flying. We also sold our car, the biggest part of our climate footprint. Some of this occurred before we founded the company, and some of it occurred afterward. We also made a few more substantial changes after the ski trip I mentioned earlier. These changes have had a significant impact on us.
I used to love travelling, and I still do. I am going to the Alps with my nine-year-old son in March, but we will be taking the train this time. It's going to be a lovely trip.
Apart from that, we have made huge changes in our lifestyle and moved from Stockholm to the North of Sweden. We live at a ski resort, so we don't have to travel as much. Though I would love to visit places like Costa Rica, South Africa, or Japan and show them to my kids, we have yet to have the opportunity. Hopefully, someday we will, especially if sustainable air fuel becomes more common.
Currently, we're living a very luxurious life. At GoClimate, we work six hours daily and have 30-hour work weeks. It's a luxury for us, even though we may earn a little less. However, our extra time with friends and family is worth it. That, for me, is a true luxury.
What were your personal biggest sacrifices to get to where you are today?
If I also talk about my other companies, it would be spending too much time at work. Though we have six-hour workdays, getting caught up in a single task is easy. There have been evenings when I come home to find the kids asleep. But the biggest sacrifice I continue to make is sacrificing more time with friends. It's a constant struggle since I also love to work, even though we try to establish clear boundaries.
The boundary between what is considered work and what is not work is unclear. This can become quite complicated. Additionally, I constantly find myself thinking about GoClimate. Sometimes I wake up at night and realise we should inform a particular customer about something. So, naturally, there are moments when I wish I didn't have to work on something I care so deeply about.
Although I am generally very happy with what I do, sometimes it becomes overwhelming. It can affect my ability to sleep, causing me to stay up too late or even skip social outings with friends because I’m determined to complete a task.
Where do you draw your biggest inspiration from today and throughout your entrepreneurship?
My friends. I have taken inspiration from various sources, but what has consistently influenced me throughout my entire life and career are my friends. We were a group that studied together at university, and we still hang out and have a lot of fun.
What do you envision with GoClimate? What kind of future do you hope to create with GoClimate?
I envision a future where we live within planetary boundaries. A future where my kids can enjoy skiing and lead fulfilling lives without putting undue strain on the climate. It's actually that simple for me.
Of course, I would also love for people to avoid war and treat each other kindly. That will come naturally as the world improves. When you zoom out and examine the data and the direction the world is heading, it looks promising.
The overall trajectory is towards a better place, except for biodiversity and the climate issue, which will have numerous secondary effects. These effects include extreme weather events, leading to hunger crises, wars, and significant human suffering. The climate crisis will trigger a cascade of these secondary consequences.
Staying within the planetary boundaries is crucial. It's a requirement for establishing a stable world.
What are your ambitions with GoClimate?
Our ambitions with GoClimate are to stop the climate crisis. We aim to significantly address the climate crisis by supporting and assisting at least 100,000 businesses. We are creating a community that collectively pushes the boundaries and raises the standards, making it easier for politicians to implement stricter regulations. While it's easy to blame politicians for not doing more, we must remember that they are also influenced by the desires of their voters and the demands of businesses.
GoClimate's role is to unite as many individuals and businesses as possible, demonstrating the direction we want to take to politicians. Hopefully, courageous politicians will respond by raising the standards for everyone. Politicians will pay attention if we can gather sufficient companies and individuals to showcase our aspirations.
Ultimately, GoClimate's greatest impact is expected to be on a global scale.
You must already have a significant amount of global data. For instance, have you analysed and compared it over the last five years? What is the most significant change you have observed?
We do possess a vast amount of data. We have members from approximately 50 different countries. But at the moment we do not engage in extensive data comparison. Our primary focus is assisting our members in reducing their emissions.
The members who sign up on GoClimate are the ones who are truly passionate about climate change. Many of our members have stopped flying, adopted a vegan lifestyle, and significantly reduced their carbon footprint. I would love to examine that data further, but I acknowledge that it may be biased.
I took the test on your website before joining this call, and I'd like to know: How do you score the tons of CO2 emitted by a car?
Most of the emissions come from society most of the time. We emphasise that the responsibility doesn't solely lie with individuals; we also need to bring about societal change. We need systemic changes. I have 5.5 tons of CO2, and 3.7 is societal or public emissions.
What's Sweden's average?
The average is 10 in Sweden, and we need to go down to 2.5 per person by 2030.
What advice would you like to give young entrepreneurs in the climate space or people considering starting a business in the climate sector?
Don't hesitate to discuss your ideas openly. Don't be afraid to test your ideas and converse with potential customers.
If you're building a business, you need customers willing to pay. Engaging with those you believe will be willing to pay and have conversations with them is important.
Many people may initially respond positively when you present an idea, expressing their enthusiasm and support. But, that said, when you mention a monthly cost of, let's say, 50 euros, they might reconsider and hesitate.
So it's crucial to be cautious of this common pitfall. While listening to people and conversing with them is essential, you must be mindful that their positive feedback doesn't always translate into willingness to pay. Some spend years working on ideas very few are willing to pay for.
This economic reality is a harsh truth: if you want to have financial stability, pay salaries, and sustain yourself, you need money, and someone needs to be willing to pay for your product or service.
Although capitalism has downsides, your impact can be remarkable if you can scale your business successfully. Remember, you need customers willing to pay to create significant change, especially if you aim for global impact, require a substantial workforce, or support many companies.
So, ensure that people genuinely want to pay for your offering. Listen to your customers, engage in conversations with them, and verify that their words align with their actions.
How would you approach that? By asking straightforwardly, would you be willing to pay for it and how?
Yes, definitely. For example, "I am sending you an invoice now, indicating that we will deliver what you want in approximately six months. You can pay at that time." If they respond with something like, "Okay, great," then you're making progress. But if they say they don't want the invoice, then it's likely they are not willing to pay.
So, be courageous in this aspect. It may feel uncomfortable to send an invoice or ask if they are willing to pay, but it's necessary if you want to scale and make a big impact.
How do you feel about growing up in such a privileged place, particularly in a wealthy country? Did you ever feel a sense of obligation towards others or a certain level of responsibility?
Yes, I definitely feel a significant responsibility. I'm a person who readily embraces responsibility, and it's something we all should do. Logically speaking, the Western regions of the world have prospered by utilising vast amounts of inexpensive energy, particularly fossil fuels, which has significantly harmed poorer countries and other parts of the world. As a result, we bear the responsibility for these consequences, and other people will suffer. Consequently, I feel accountable, and everyone living in the wealthier Western regions of the world should share this responsibility.
If there were one lasting message that could reach everyone on this planet, what would that be?
Something along the lines of reconsidering the material pursuits in life. So many of the pursuits people engage in are ultimately not worth it. Instead, one should strive to find things that genuinely bring joy and contribute to a good life.
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